Unnecessary Faerie “War”. Perspective. truthS not TRUTH.

topic posted Thu, June 19, 2008 - 4:55 PM by  Teddy
In this Fictional conversation, “Y” stands for a some one from the younger generation, “E” stands for some one from the elder generation. Please remember that fiction means the story is created from the mind, it does not mean the story is false. The meaning that I am using for “Faggot Community” in this little fictional conversation, is that of male faeries who love other male faeries. I am reclaiming the power of the word “faggot” and making it positive: I reject the negative power this word has; this is similar to how “fairy”--a very negative word angrily hurled at homosexual men for decades--was reclaimed and changed to a positive word. To symbolize it’s transformation, the organizers of the first Spiritual Gathering of Radical Faeries changed it’s spelling to “faerie”. Fairy (faerie)--once a powerful derogatory put down--is now embraced as a word full of love by men, women, queer, straight, trans, in-between, pangender and any other labels (including non-labels) of identification that I am not familiar with.

Y: Faggot Community does not need to be separate from the mixed community, we are all a part of the whole--united we stand, divided we fall.

E: If we look at it from that prospective then there is no such thing as Faggot Community, there is only Mixed Community. It would be like saying, there is no need for an Orchid Society, orchids are just flowers--they are a part of the Floral Society.

Y: Faggot Community is a thing of the past, it was “protective isolation” from the oppressive general society, but now that the general society is being more tolerant and accepting of queer people, protective isolation is no longer needed.

E: The first Radical Faerie gatherings were not about protective isolation; quite the contrary, these gathering were not about hiding, the were about coming forth--exploring who one is. Faggot Community first formed at a gathering, it was not Faggot Community escaping into the woods.

Y: I’ve never heard that before, could you elaborate?

E: In the 1930s to 1970s, homosexual males had to be very discreet in where they met; there was no community to speak of, it was just individual faggots getting together to have a drink and meet each other--often in fear of discovery and the brutal consequences if discovered; and I really do mean brutal, death being a very real possibility.

Y: I very much understand and empathize with that. So the gatherings really were an escape from that oppression.

E: No, I was just setting up the background. In the 70s, there was a sort of faggot community, but it was still mostly individual faggots who came together from time to time to socialize and discuss their social/political status. This community tried to reach out to the general society, specifically to straight males, who were doing all the “gay bashing”. This faggot community--also called the Gay Community--wanted to have the gay bashing stop, they were tired of seeing their friends hospitalized or in the morgue.

Y: I would be tired too; I would be angry!

E: The faggot community was angry, but their sorrow was much greater. This community spoke to the oppressing straight males: “Please stop brutalizing us, we are just like you are--except for what we do in bed”. Emphasis was very much on the “we are JUST like you are”.

Y: So, I have not yet seen anything that indicates that the early gatherings were not protective isolation.

E: I’m getting there. In the mid 70s a group of faggots met and said to each other: “but we are NOT just like straight men, we are very different--it’s what we do in bed that is the same, the only variation is that it’s two males, rather than a male and a female”. “Outside of sex, we are very different; how different, we don’t really know for there is no real information about us any where”. “Why don’t we send out a call for others who feel they are different from straight men, and lets us discover for ourselves who we are: let us explore what is and what can be”.

Y: So why isn’t this common knowledge amongst the larger mixed gender faeries?

E: It is common knowledge, it just doesn’t seem to mean anything. Perhaps this is because what is not common knowledge, is what really happened at these early gatherings. People tend to think that what is called a gathering today is what a gathering has always been.

Y: You mean early gatherings were not like the fabulous gatherings of today?

E: They were fabulous and they were more more human growth oriented “work” than today’s gatherings. The early gatherings had 10 to 15 different circles a day; and I do me a day--these circles were attended through out the entire day; a gathering was not a festival or “hang out with friends ‘get together’”.

Y: That sounds rather boring and tedious; it sounds too much like a conference. It certainly doesn’t sound like anything I would be interested in. Where’s the fun? Where’s the joy? Where’s the spontaneity? Where’s the connecting? Doesn’t really sound very “faerie” to me. Heart circle is enough circle for me.

E: Yes, there were 13 circles offered, but no one attended all 13; you couldn’t because many of the circles went on at the same time; you chose one to three you were interested in. In between circles there was plenty of time to do other things. Unlike today’s gatherings, most people who attended a gathering hung out in common space all day long, rather than wandering off from common space in small groups. We had heart circle too; heart circle was created during the first gatherings.

Y: How could you possibly have heart circle as well as all those other circles? Didn’t you feel talked out?

E: Not all the circles were verbal. Many involved touch: massage, communicating needs & wants without words, looking into each others eyes, nurturing through holding, group mud bath (that was both fun and very nurturing), trust walks, blindfolded group explorations. All of these circles--verbal and non-verbal--helped bring resonance magick forth.

Y: What do you mean by Resonance?

E: Suppose you have 20 Tibetan Bowls: two identical sets of 10 bowls of various sizes. Now suppose you place a set of 10 bowls on one side of a room, and place the other set on another side. You choose one bowl and make it “sing” by rotating a think piece of wood shaped like a wand around its rim. On the other side of the room, one of those bowls also sings. The bowl that sings without being It “made to”, will be the same size as the first bowl. Make 2 or more different bowls sing on one side and you will have harmony. On the other side of the room, you will also have harmony: a harmony created from 2 or more resonating bowls.

Y: How does Resonance apply to male faeries who love other male faeries?

E: Male faeries who love other male faeries are like a Tibetan Bowl of the same size; they are almost the same person--only a slight variation separates one from the other.

Y: So, what did this Resonating do for you?

E: It helped us learn to know, trust and love every one else at the gathering. It helped create “Tightly-Bonded Community”: community where each person felt they belonged to something greater than themselves; community where no one would think twice about helping their brother learn to love themselves; community where we were mirrors for each other; community where helping one person’s growth helped the entire community grow: a community of Lovers!

Y: What do you mean by a community of lovers?

E: You know about being “single”. You know about couple relationships. You may have even heard about triads and quads. Now imagine a group of males being so knowledgeable, so loving and so intimate with each other that they always want to live with everyone else--as a whole group!. Intimacy that involved body, mind, heart and soul. This was a newly discovered type of love. A loved we believed had existed before, but due to various circumstances was lost, so in reality, this love was rediscovered. This group love was possible because we resonated with each other, we were in sync: body, heart, mind and spirit.

Y: You still sound quite elitist with faggot males being the only group of people who can have Tightly-Bonded Resonance Community.

E: I never said males who love males were the ONLY group who could resonate; we--as far as I know--were just the first group who rediscovered this way of relating. If you remember my illustration of the 20 Tibetan bowls of various sizes, each bowl of the same size can resonate with any and all bowls of the same size--in this particular illustration, the would be 10 different resonations. I think that’s beautiful, incredibly beautiful. And then remember, these various sizes of resonating bowls can be sounded together to make other types of music. More beauty, more delight!

Y: I still have one more question. Why would you want to exclude women from this fabulous Tightly-Bonded Resonance Community?

E: Would it be exclusion if you had a 100 Tibetan Bowls all of the same size resonating like crazy and then put 10 bowls of a different size in their midst? Introduce a 101 bowl of the same size into the group of bowls and immediately it would begin to resonate--to sing; the 10 bowls of a different size would not. However, put those 10 bowls in a group of bowls their size, and behold the same type of magick as the first set. Oh, and please remember: Resonance Community is only ONE form of community; there are MANY others. We can celebrate each others different communities. We can celebrate each others truthS. I hope faeries never adopt the idea of a single TRUTH, it would destroy all of the love and beauty.

Y: Let us walk down the road of life hand in hand celebrating who we are as individuals and who we are as groups. As you say, we can celebrate each others truthS; we have no need to fight or put each other down. Long live faeries of all kinds!
posted by:
Teddy
SF Bay Area
  • "War" Unnecessary.

    Fri, June 20, 2008 - 2:33 AM
    I feel like the bowl metaphor attempts to cast as self-evident (and literally cast in bronze) the idea that gay faerie males can only truly express themselves or resonate with other gay faerie males. As a gay male I know from experience that this isn't true for me. So I don't see that idea as self-evident but rather a choice -- to exclude non-faggot males in preference of faggot males. Even if this exclusion is felt to be beneficial by those doing the excluding, or if it's couched in metaphor, or given different names, or approached from a different angle, its net effect is still one of exclusion of one group of people by another group of people.

    I'm not against exclusion per se. I participate in it all the time. I usually exclude bacon from my diet. I usually exclude lifting heavy weights from my exercises. I usually exclude avid Republicans from my nights out on the town. These are all conscious choices on my part that feel like they 'resonate' with my true self, and are healthy choices. But one thing I don't do is make these exclusions an unbending rule that I imagine should apply to all my friends in order that we can resonate with each other better. I don't say that only scrawny vegan Democrats can be members of my scrawny vegan cult, or that one week in August only scrawny vegans can come over to my house. Yes, many of the people I hang out with are scrawny and/or veganish, but that's not the result of a vetting process.

    And I guess I just don't get this resonating only with other gay males thing. I'm a gay male and I have had intimate moments--moments of deep resonance--with gays, straights, trannies, bis, men, women, cats, dogs, trees, books, imaginary beings, and even Republicans. Resonance has usually come from a shared moment and not primarily from my gender or sexual orientation.

    As a gay man I gravitate to and tend to be intimate more often with other queer men. Certainly that's true when the intimacy is of a sexual nature. But is sexual intimacy the defining feature of faggot-only space?

    One thing that interested me in your post was where you talked about a community of lovers united in body, mind, heart and soul. You didn't mention sex, but are sexual relations an indivisible part of this? If so, then I can see where you might desire that certain interactions happen between those of a certain gender, although in truth I still wouldn't see the need to 'legislate' it -- I'd imagine it would happen of its own accord. No matter how mixed the gathering, gay guys are not going to be getting it on with lesbians in large numbers, no matter how potent the mead.

    And I think that gets to the heart of it for me. When gay male faeries come together of their own accord with other gay male faeries in order to get to know themselves better, that's great! But when one seeks to exclude the non-gay guys in order to get there, that's what I don't get. I'm a faggot male, and having women and straight people around isn't going to make me less faerie. It's not going to interfere with my finding myself. Indeed, it absolutely helps me to find myself because with people around who are not like me I can see the contrast so much more easily.

    What is it about a mixed faerie gathering that prevents or precludes those gay male faeries who are so inclined to intermingle and become intimate with other gay male faeries from doing it? What, here in 2008, necessitates the exclusion on a gathering-wide basis? Are not the majority of mixed gathering goers gay men? Are there not innumerable impromptu gay-male-only spaces that arise within every mixed gathering?

    And say you have your 100 ringing bowls of one size. How would putting 10 or even 1000 bowls of another size in their midst interfere one bit with their own ringing?
    • Re: "War" Unnecessary.

      Sat, June 21, 2008 - 7:29 PM
      I'm just replying some parts of Julian's post, the following.

      "No matter how mixed the gathering, gay guys are not going to be getting it on with lesbians in large numbers, no matter how potent the mead."

      In my experience very few lesbians are interested in hanging out with gay men at a gathering. The women who attend mixed gatherings are mostly heterosexual women who love the company of gay men. Most women respect gay men's need to have some male only space at times. however there are a large number of gay men who feel either guilt, discomfort or both, being in a space that is exclusively for gay men born males. This is just my own opinion / observation.

      "But is sexual intimacy the defining feature of faggot-only space"?

      Faggot spirituality and sexuality are indistinguishable and they emerge and are sustained by faggot only space in a way that does not occur in mixed spaces.


  • The resonating bowls idea sounds sweet. But, you also can make great music with several different sizes of crystal glasses, filled with various amounts of water. I guess it just boils down to what kind of music you prefer.

    www.youtube.com/watch

    I have been to gatherings for close to twenty years. Everyone is different because chaos says it must be that way. If you host a gathering at your own home/sanctuary then you can decide who is to be invited. If you host an event where everyone who hears the call is welcome with uncondtional love then all you can do is sit back and welcome whoever shows up to attend.

    Either way neither event will ever turn out exactly how anyone expects it to and it will only morph into its own unique experience to be enjoyed by all who participate. The best any of the attendees can do at that point is hold on and enjoy the ride. Besides what is so wrong with trusting that the Goddess will only test you with as much as you can handle if you trust you will only be better from taking the test?

    That's my two cents today, spend it wisely,

    Esteban

    In (Judy)Garland, TX where I do say I am totally enjoying this thread that has been running here for the past few days.
    • What "Faerie War?" Such a strange choice of words.

      I love the ongoing threads about this and related topics. It's great to hear many different perspectives. It's okay to disagree! It's a good thing!

      Confrontation is Good. I see nothing wrong with it. It's important to call people on their shit. Being overly respectful is counter productive and is frankly less than genuine. I am almost more bothered that some folks seem so worried about sounding offensive. Fuck that. Let's get real, shall we?

      Obviously I strongly disagree with the notion of Faggot Only Space (or what ever it's called). I simply will not shut up about it. I stand firm on my position, I own my feelings, and the words that spew from my mouth. Since when did faeries become Elitists?!

      Saying there is more that one Truth (regarding this matter) is a little too wishy-washy for me. I concede that I could be wrong about this. But until I hear a convincing arguement that can convince me otherwise - I still think BioMale Only Space is offensive and goes against what I percieve radical faerie culture is all about.

      Lucian
      • Your argument, Lucian, boils down to "Because I don't want this thing, I am ashamed of others for wanting it". Which puts you in good company with fundamentalists of every persuasion.

        Myself, I believe in diversity. For me to participate in a gay male focused gathering takes nothing from you. So why do you want to take it from me, or shame me for it?
        • Damien, dude,...get off your soapbox. I have no interest in taking anything away from you. As IF I had that kind of power or influence! Do what ever you want with your space. Matters not to me. Obviously I won't be there. I don't even know who the fuck you are. Nor do you know me - so don't pretend to. Umkay?
          • My two cents. I think some faeries seek male only space for any number of positive reasons. There are however many who seek it for reasons that can only be labeled as sexist. I have observed many conversations where there is outright hostility expressed toward female faeries. This takes the form of language where all women are referd to as "bitches" or "fish" or "wimmen" and I rarely hear male faeries express any opposition to such attitudes. I have spoken up a couple of times only to be told that I am just being "politically correct" or in one case I was told that I need to read more Harry Hay. Harry was just plain wrong about some issues. (so sue me for saying so) But I digress. I think sexism toward women and homophobia are related issues and maybe some workshops or circles might help.




          • Lucian wrote: "I don't even know who the fuck you are. Nor do you know me - so don't pretend to. Umkay? "

            But we do have friends in common (including Daz'l, Aster, Keer, and others), and we both are connected to the same broad radical faerie community. And I am asking you to tone down your rhetoric against male-focused gatherings and organizations in our extended community, because this rhetoric contributes to a hostile environment in which those who do wish to participate in such things are losing the ability to do so (as Sinnerjee has discussed at more length in this thread). If you truly have no interest in taking anything away from me, and others who appreciate male-focused space, please consider the potentially unintended side effects of your words.
  • Not for Me, Blessed Be!

    Fri, June 20, 2008 - 2:42 PM
    Let me preface my response by saying that I am not gay-identified; I am not queer-identified. I am just an earth-identified man who loves men. I am an Inside-Outsider. I am assumed to be gay, queer, faggot, etc... because these labels apparently make sense to Others. But they're not how I perceive myself. I think it's counterproductive for me to focus on my sexuality as if it were the most important thing about me or as if it determined my cultural identity. I respect the choices of others to define themselves primarily by who and how they fuck. I used to identify as a "Radical Faerie" until I realized that my personal values, ideals and goals were significantly different from Rad Fae values, ideals and goals. I am still a friend of Faeries which is why I still go to gatherings and post on faerie e-lists from time to time. I respect the choices of others to identify themselves as queers, faggots, etc.... even as i personally choose to define myself for myself instead of taking on what i perceive to be hateful slurs which ignorant people try to attach to me. A mantra that I've been working with alot lately is:

    Not for Me! Blessed Be!!!

    Personally, I think it's condescnding and elitist to assume that gatherings that are open to all genders are somehow more evolved or "better" in some way than Gay-male-only gatherings. They are just different. Why can't we acknowledge and respect difference without assuming that one way is better or more evolved than another??

    That said, I want to share my perceptions on why Gay-male-only spaces are beneficial and important and why I see such spaces continuing into the future even if some people regard them as less evolved or unnecessary.

    I know it's popular to pretend that equality means that men and women are the same, but truth be told, most people tend to respond to men and women differently, even if those differences are subtle. Sometimes those differences are so subtle that it's easy for people to deny that they even exist.

    Men who love men can benefit from spaces away from women so they can work shit out and develop aspects of themselves that they would probably not explore if women were around. Similarly, women can benefit from women-only spaces where they can work through shit without men present. Having only Gay-identified men present changes the dynamics and energies at a gathering. Again these changes are not better or worse, only different.

    Men are often taught to project their emotional and nurturing needs onto women. Without women present, men get more opportunities to nurture and emotionally support each other instead of relying on women to mother them. They can work through their mommy attachments without projecting them on to women. In male-only spaces men have to take on all the tasks and qualities typically associated with women. Some men have been taught to censor themsleves or behave differently if women are around. In male-only space, they are free to talk about things that they might not discuss if women were present.

    Some men are scared of opening up to other men. At gatherings where women are present, they can gravitate towards women and avoid having to deal with their fears of men. At an all male-gathering, it's harder to hide from those fears. Some men need to talk about their hang-ups around women or how they've been hurt or abused by a woman in their past and they may be reluctant to share those experiences if women are around. Some men who love men are shy about their bodies and aren't comfortable being naked or having sex if women are around. Some are uncomfortable seeing women naked. It's easy to tell these guys to "get over it." It's hard to hold space for them and respect their discomfort enough to not should on them.

    These are only a few of the reasons why the Radical Faeries started off as a call to Gay brothers and why some Gay-identified men continue to seek out Gay-men-only spaces even though they are chastised and condemned for being less evolved or out of touch with contemporary gender-inclusive values..... There are many more reasons, some of which have yet to be discovered and articulated. Ultimately, no one should have to defend why they set certain boundaries or intentions for a gathering or community. It's easy to criticize Others for not being the way we think they should be. It's hard to truly honor diversity by holding space for people who have different needs to create spaces where they can attempt to meet those needs instead of assuming that all people should be able to meet all their needs in one kind of space....
    • Re: Not for Me, Blessed Be!

      Wed, July 30, 2008 - 2:33 PM
      SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

      Well said. Well spoken.

      Can someone save this?

      People may need to referred to it over and over again.
  • I would agree with others here that there is no "war." The unresolvable disagreements exist between those who claim one camp or the other as the correct domain and the rightful last word on what "Faerie" should be, either because, historically, that's the way things were (faggot-space only), or, from some moral standpoint, the way things were is unjust or offensive (so, mixed space is the only correct way to be). I would say that most folks are represented by neither "Y" nor "E" in Teddy's teaching dialog. What's missing are the voices of the hundreds of people over the years who have found peace, transformation and self-discovery from Faerie Gatherings across the country, whether or not they were mixed or faggot-only events. While the roots of this strange tree clearly lie in gay male sexual exploration, that is not what it has become, and hacking the non-gay-male limbs off (so many now you'd have to damage the trunk) or attacking its roots will only kill the tree.

    It's not an either/or choice here, no matter how loudly vocal members of each camp scream that the other has stolen their precious space. And at least some of us speaking here in this thread had our Faerie beginnings at Wolf Creek. We have weaved our blood, sweat, and tears into its fabric and infused that beloved Mother Maple with the energy of our souls, and hers with ours, washed away our toils and troubles in the creek, and made love in the forests and fields there.

    Even though it would sadden me, since it would exclude many of my Faerie Sisters and opposing Brothers, I would support Wolf Creek as a male-only space... IF Nomenus could consense on it, AND they could find caretakers with the energy and passion for such a vision and the wherewithal to live in such an exclusive and difficult environment as male-only space. As it stands, the caretakers there now have passion and vision for many other positive things, but not this vision that a few members hold for its rightful future. They want monks to hold the old order, but they don't want to be the monks, and they have no one in mind to uphold the old ways.
  • Perspective. truthS not TRUTH.

    Fri, June 27, 2008 - 6:05 PM
    thank u teddy u seem to say and know all the wise fuel things..as an LOUD WAGUS activist,,,,IT NICE WHEN PEOPLE REALLY work for others, then, when some one works only to feed their own ego or greed.... be well all...

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